School for School Counselors Podcast

The Giant Lie School Counselors Tell Every Day

• School for School Counselors • Episode 108

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Navigating the delicate balance of student confidentiality is crucial but complex. In this episode, we tackle real-life scenarios where transparency becomes a necessity, especially in critical situations involving suicidal ideation, self-harm, or legal mandates. We'll discuss the ethical boundaries school counselors must navigate, stressing the importance of clear communication with students about the limits of confidentiality. Plus, the episode delves into the ethical pitfalls and voyeuristic tendencies that can arise, urging professionals to refine their skills and ensure the best interests of their students are always prioritized.

Managing confidentiality effectively is at the heart of professional school counseling. We'll explore the risks of certain practices and the importance of critically analyzing and communicating confidentiality guidelines to avoid misunderstandings.


Mentioned in this episode:
American School Counselor Association. (2016). ASCA Ethical Standards for School Counselors. Retrieved from https://www.schoolcounselor.org/getmedia/44b6a9a9-84ff-47e3-baa7-ccb78c9a6567/Ethical-Standards.pdf

U.S. Department of Education. (2021). Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA). Retrieved from https://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html


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Speaker 1:

Hey there, school counselor, welcome back to the School for School Counselors podcast. I'm Steph Johnson, your host, glad to be back with you for another week of some insights, some deep thinking and some critical analyzation of the world of school counseling, because sometimes the information that we get from the world at large isn't correct, and so we want to make sure that you're equipped, you're empowered and you're prepared as you walk into the new school year. Right now in my neck of the woods, my family is busy getting ready for the start of the school year. The kids go back here in about a week and a half. We've been busy in my household trying to find backpacks and lunch boxes and make sure everybody has the perfect pair of shoes right that's really important when you're a kiddo getting ready to start the school year, and so we've been busy running around town trying to get all those things ready, doing all of the pre-school year events, things like you know, open houses and meet the teachers and band rehearsals and all those kinds of things, and so it feels like the school year is already pretty much in full swing and it's really going to hit home. I know when it's time to set the alarm and get the kiddos up early in the morning, but we're definitely heading that direction.

Speaker 1:

You know, my daughter and I have been joking about a concept that I guess the kids are talking about when they're talking about gatekeeping items. Have you heard about this where somebody walks up and says, oh you know, I love your shoes or I love your shirt, where'd you get that? And instead of just being up front and telling them where it came from, you gatekeep and you say, oh, you know, I really don't remember, I'm not sure. Or my mom bought them or something like that to throw them off the trail because you don't want anybody trying to imitate you. Right? You're not up for that challenge to your rep. And so we've been laughing a lot about are you going to be a gatekeeper this year, or who do you think are going to be the biggest gatekeepers when school starts?

Speaker 1:

But you know, I think sometimes in school counseling we end up trying to gatekeep a little bit ourselves. Let me tell you what I mean by that. I think that sometimes we take the idea of confidentiality and about trust and disclosure in the counseling world and we take it a little bit too far. And when we take it a little bit too far. And when we take it a little bit too far, perhaps because we don't have a clear understanding of the nuances of the situation, or maybe because there are other factors at play we end up telling our students a lie day after day, not even realizing that we're doing it. Ooh, that feels heavy, doesn't it? And I know that you're dying to know what is this lie, and am I telling it? Am I guilty of doing this to my students?

Speaker 1:

I'm going to tell you all about it coming up in this episode, but first I want to jump into a recent review that we received for the podcast. Some of our wonderful listeners have intentionally taken time out of their day to review the podcast and pass along their compliments about the content that we're providing to you, the insight and information, and they tend to typically talk about how much they appreciate our information being research-based, and so I'm glad folks are noticing that. I'm glad we're being of service in our field. But I want to show you this podcast review because I think it's going to mean a lot to all of us as we think critically about the resources that we're using in our professional work. This podcast review comes from Some C15. I'm reading it off my phone here and it says so needed. The review goes on to say this I'm a veteran school counselor who has needed these words of wisdom, validation and encouragement all of my career. I'm so thankful newer school counselors have this resource to go to so they can feel more confident and equipped to handle our very important job. The podcast episodes take the real life of a school counselor to heart and help us approach our work in healthy, balanced and meaningful ways. School for School Counselors, the Mastermind Program, the many resources and the podcasts have helped me overcome serious burnout and rediscover my confidence in and love of the work I do. I thank Steph for helping school counselors and building up our profession in such a positive way. Thank you so much for that review that comes from SomeC15. I appreciate that more than you know and so happy and excited that our podcast is hitting the mark for you.

Speaker 1:

Hey, as you're listening, if you haven't had a chance yet, hop on over and submit a review of the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Apple Podcasts helps us out the most, but feel free to do it wherever you enjoy getting your podcast episodes. We would love the help in raising to the charts We've topped out, I think at number six. We would love to get to number one one day, and you can help us do that. So thanks in advance.

Speaker 1:

All right, so back to the idea of the biggest lie that some of us tell our students on our campus almost every single day ooh, this is going to hurt some of your hearts. It's a topic that I normally talk about when I do Best Year Ever and for some reason this year the topic really didn't come up. I'm not sure why, just kind of we were busy talking about other things, I guess. But I wanted to circle back around and really hit this hard in the podcast because I think it's so important and it is very counterculture to a lot of the things that you see on social media, on particular websites. When we're talking about getting our school year set up, we're talking about getting our offices ready to go, all of our materials ready. This one item almost always comes up in the discussion and y'all it is 1000% not correct. So what am I talking about? I've just been building the anticipation this whole time, been building the anticipation this whole time.

Speaker 1:

Take a breath and think about this. Do you have a sign in your office that says something to this effect what you say in here stays in here unless someone's hurting you. You want to hurt yourself, you want to hurt somebody else, or you give me permission to share. Do you have one of those in your office? Oh, if you do, I may change your mind today, because I'm here to tell you those signs are not accurate. And because they're not accurate, I strongly feel that that makes them unethical. I may have just rocked your world and if I did I'm sorry. I know that we all do those things with the best of intentions, right, because ethically we do need to gain assent from students before we begin counseling conversations. That's part of our ethical code and we need to make sure that we do a good job of that and that students understand the limitations of our conversation and the circumstances under which we might have to share.

Speaker 1:

And I think these signs have gained popularity for a couple of reasons. I think, first, they make it all seem very cut and dry, very simple, very straightforward and upfront. And secondly, I think the rise of teachers pay teachers. Here I go again on that soapbox, but I think you know making cute things and putting them out in the world and not necessarily checking up on the structure behind those materials has really become a thing that is shaping up to hurt not only school counseling but education in general. So let's talk critically through these signs, and I want to try to show you my viewpoint and what I mean when I say I think it's a lie that we tell students if we have those in our offices or if we're talking in that direction. Now again, you know, I think it is nice to have a simple framework from which to work, and I do think that we need to have some basic paradigms that we establish.

Speaker 1:

When we start visiting with a student, depending on their age, that could look like a lot of different things, but when we tell students that those are the only four conditions in which we will disclose information, it's simply not true. And often we really get enticed by this idea when we are newer counselors because we haven't experienced and seen enough to understand that that really isn't reality. And then, once we get further along in our careers, we've seen some stuff go down. Some of y'all know what I'm talking about or we get into an unfortunate situation where records are requested or we get subpoenaed or something like that, and we realize maybe all of this isn't as confidential as I thought. Maybe I can't keep this information as confidential as I promised, and that can do potentially a lot of damage to the relationship between you and the student, the relationship between you and the parents, and sometimes the relationship between the student and the parent, and we don't wanna go down that road if we can help it, and sometimes the relationship between the student and the parent, and we don't want to go down that road if we can help it.

Speaker 1:

So let's talk about some times when the sign may not be correct. So remember, typically we see four criteria. Sometimes we only see three on these. So really be discerning. But usually it's four, which is someone is hurting you, you want to hurt yourself, you want to hurt somebody else or you give me permission to share. So certainly, if someone is hurting the student, we are bound to report that right. We are mandated reporters in every state. We have to report that to the local authorities so that they can investigate and figure out what's going on and make sure the child is safe Hands down. No doubt about it. We are going to have to disclose that information and so it's good to let students know that.

Speaker 1:

The second category on the sign is you want to hurt yourself, and again, that is an imminent danger situation. If a student is in imminent danger, we want to make sure we're letting the right people know, we're getting them access to the resources and the support that they need to feel better to stay safe. That is our number one goal as school counselors, and so that is also a very valid criteria on this list. You want to hurt someone else. If we know that someone is in danger of imminent harm, we have to report that. That is our duty, not only as professionals, but as citizens and just as good people, right? So we want to make sure we're handling all of that well.

Speaker 1:

The last one is you give me permission to share, and I think a lot of school counselors lean on that one a lot. We feel like if we can just convince the student that it needs to be shared, everything should be fine, and sometimes it is. But sometimes there are situations that come into play that we never anticipated. Right, we get some sort of weird curve ball out of left field and all of a sudden we have no idea what to do next. We feel like we're painted in this corner. We've told the student one thing, we're gonna have to do something else, and we just kind of panic. I hope you've never been there. I don't want you to ever be there and so let's consider some times when these signs may not be accurate.

Speaker 1:

First would be an issue of subpoenas. Now, school counselors and the word subpoena just do not seem to go together. It strikes fear in the hearts of so many people. Getting subpoenaed for documentation to testify, things like that is a big deal, but it's nothing to panic over In the context of this conversation. Really, what we're talking about is, if you're served papers and you're required to disclose some kind of student information, you're going to have to do it, and that does not fall under the four criteria that you provided to students. It doesn't have anything to do with someone hurting them. They are wanting to hurt themselves, they're wanting to hurt someone else or they're giving you permission. That's not part of that, and often we think you know, wow, that's just kind of a far-fetched situation. That won't happen here.

Speaker 1:

I feel pretty confident, but I've been in school counseling long enough to tell you that sometimes things make a complete circle, right, it's a whole 180. And all of a sudden we're in territory that we never anticipated being in. There are nasty custody battles going on in our children's homes. There are things going on with parents that have to be investigated. All kinds of things can pop up, and we cannot be ensured that we won't be subpoenaed. And you know, of course. You know. I hope that if that happens, you go directly to your district personnel, you let them know what's going on, you have them refer you to their legal counsel. You need to get in touch with your legal counsel as well, and that sounds big and hairy and scary. I promise you it's not as intimidating as it sounds. But don't fight that battle alone. You do not need to be a Lone Ranger in that situation. But at the end of the day, after the lawyers have done their part and they've decided what's going to be needed, what's going to be admissible and what's not, you may be required to provide some information, and so that makes your confidentiality agreement, so to speak, null and void. And so we don't want to give students a false sense of safety or security by giving them these paradigms that aren't necessarily true.

Speaker 1:

Another time that we may need to disclose student information, and not even anticipate needing to do so, is in the context of consultation and or referrals. So in those cases you may need to discuss their situation with some outside folks. Sometimes that is to clarify your own position, sometimes that is to solidify your ethics in the situation. Sometimes it is to access services, and when you're trying to access services you're trying to convey the gravity of a situation You're really pressing to get the student what they need or to make other people understand the extent of the concern. You might have to disclose a little bit about what they told you. It doesn't mean that you just let it fly right and you tell everything that you know, but you might have to disclose some information that they may not have anticipated you sharing, and so we always need to have that going in the backs of our minds.

Speaker 1:

If it's in an educational realm, if it's being referred for maybe some special education services emotional disturbance, testing, things like that that are in-house in the school, those disclosures are covered by FERPA and you've promised them these very specific categories of you know disclosing information that don't jive with that. They're going to feel blindsided when it happens, and so we've got to be very, very careful about how we talk about this, sometimes in the process of getting students screened, perhaps for suicidal ideation or self-harm, we may need to disclose some things that they've told us. Now, to us that seems like a no-brainer right Because we know we're going to have to disclose to ensure their safety and this does fall under the hurt yourself part of the confidentiality. But I don't think students realize often how far some of those disclosures go. They don't understand that we're obligated to inform parents as well as emergency services. They don't understand that as we're building safety plans, sometimes we have to make some disclosures because sometimes we have to make a case for why this particular component is needed in a safety plan. And if we've got parents who aren't ready to believe that they've reached this, you know, critical stage in their relationship with their child, they're going to say why do we need that? That doesn't even make any sense. We don't need to add that in. Actually we do, and here's why Sometimes you're going to have to disclose information. Does that mean that it's common? No, I wouldn't say these situations are common. But if we're working to be on the up and up, I think that we can gain assent in an ethical way, with integrity, without making all these promises that we may not be able to keep. I think that's the most important part of this is that we always just need to have in the backs of our minds there are things that come up. Right, things happen. We can't anticipate everything. If we could, we would be clairvoyant and our jobs would be a whole lot easier, right, but we don't have that talent. We don't know where things are going to go, and so we've always just kind of got to keep an eye toward the future. We got to play the what if game a little bit just to make sure that we're doing the right things by our students. They are our number one concern, right, all right.

Speaker 1:

A side note about self-harm, potential suicidality or non-suicidal self-injury. That gets to be a sticky area as well. The research tends to bounce back and forth, and so I think we need to keep that in mind as well. How harmful, is harmful enough to be considered? Hurting yourself, scratching, how deep? What if it progresses? How do we know? How do we measure that? That gets to be a really sticky situation, and I would hate for you to get caught on the other side of that when it's become really severe or really concerning and you have folks saying how come you never said anything? How come you never told anyone? I don't want you to have to stand there and answer to that and say, well, I thought it was going to get better, I thought what we were doing was going to work, but it didn't.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes, in the student's best interest, we need to disclose some of those things and in a situation like that, they're probably not going to be super agreeable to you talking to their parents about it. You can have some conversations and try to work that direction, but sometimes you get to a point where you're at an impasse and those things have to happen. State laws regarding pregnancies same thing. You have to know your state laws regarding this and what you are mandated to do as a school counselor. You may have to disclose information and the student may not be prepared for that. They may not view it as harming themselves or harming another person when the parents or the court may very likely see that it is At the end of the day.

Speaker 1:

Here's the point. We've got to stop promising things that we can't deliver. To stop promising things that we can't deliver. We have to stop trying to paint a picture of well, just come in, just come, tell me everything. I want to know it all, don't worry, it's safe with me. I'm going to be able to keep your information between you and me. But go ahead, just spill your guts. And sometimes I think I don't want to offend you, but I think this is pretty common in our field.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes we get some folks who end up getting a little bit voyeuristic in the conversation. It just becomes so intriguing and sometimes tantalizing to hear all the details about a situation going on in a student's world. Or sometimes, if we don't feel like we're equipped to help them walk through that we seek more and more information, thinking surely we're going to get all of it and then that's going to give us the answer. That's a dangerous road to walk down. I don't know that. I would recommend that.

Speaker 1:

I think instead we have to get really good at our craft so that we don't need all the details. We don't need every little crumb of information that there is about the situation. We feel equipped enough that when we hear the general theme or the general concern, we can take it and run with it and then receive disclosure from the student as needed. But it's not like a fact-finding mission. It's not like an archaeological dig where we're digging back into family history and well, what happened last year and the year before that and how many times has this happened, and all these kinds of things. If the information is useful in helping the student solve the problem, it's ethical. But if we're just looking for all the information because we can, it may not be. And I think that's the temptation of these confidentiality standards is that you know well, just go ahead and tell me everything you can and then let me be the judge of where the conversation needs to go. I'm the one that can help, let me be the savior of the situation, and that is very, very dangerous, not only for your student but for you as well.

Speaker 1:

Part of that professional discernment does come from experience, it comes from repetition, it comes from trial and error and it comes from good quality consultation. You knew I was going to go there, didn't you? Because I believe in it with a thousand percent of my soul that every single school counselor should be involved in multiple modes of consultation. I think it's imperative to our field. So you may be thinking, steph, that's all well and good, and I see your point. There are lots of things that may not fall under those criteria. But what do I do now? How do I gain assent from students when I don't have this nice, neat categorization to put it into? What do I say? How do I do that?

Speaker 1:

I think, personally, it should be a multi-pronged approach. If your confidentiality boundaries are only talked about in your counseling office, a student comes to you with a problem, they want to figure out what to do and then, when they sit down with you, it's the first time that they've heard about your confidentiality boundaries. That's probably not a great situation. Those need to be communicated in multiple ways so that we can ensure that we're doing the best job of notifying everyone involved can ensure that we're doing the best job of notifying everyone involved. Those should be on your district school counseling page, somewhere you can have it on your campus school counseling page. You can educate students beforehand, before they ever even seek you out, in some tier one lessons, some small groups, some things like that.

Speaker 1:

We need to constantly be reiterating the boundaries of confidentiality and I think the discussion is different depending on the ages of the children. Right, little bitty kids don't understand ascent. They don't get it, and parents are going to want to be much more involved in the situation because they're small, they're young and they're little, and parents want to know what's going on, and they should. They should know what's going on. Some of you won't agree with me on that, but I 1,000% think that parents need to know what's happening as far as we can disclose to them. I think a lot of the bad PR that we've had in our industry of school counseling has been from withholding information from parents. Sometimes we know we have to do that for the student's best interest or because of you know we're not mandated to report and the student doesn't want the parent to know. We have to navigate those situations carefully. Our ASCA ethics remind us that we have to recognize our primary obligation to confidentiality for the student, but we also need to balance that obligation with an understanding of the parent or guardian's legal and inherent rights to be the guiding voice in their children's lives, especially in issues that are value-laden.

Speaker 1:

And so this is not a. You tell me everything and I keep it under my hat all the time. School counseling isn't and shouldn't be like that, and if you are listening to people who are telling you that, sadly I think they are misinforming you. Oh, that's heavy, isn't it? It's so heavy.

Speaker 1:

But y'all, if we're really doing all of these things with the best of intentions, and I believe that every single school counselor that listens to this podcast wants to be the best at their craft. They could be. I believe that with 100% of my heart, and you know why. I know Because you're here listening. You could be doing a million other things with your time. You could be binging Netflix, you could be out at the mall shopping. You could be belting out some tunes during your commute, you could be watching the TVs in the gym while you're on the treadmill instead of listening to me. You could be doing lots of things, but you've chosen to listen to this podcast, and that speaks volumes about you and the professional person that you want to be. And so I'm not going to tell you you're right or you're wrong, but I am going to say use an abundance of caution, critically analyze and rethink. Do you want to take the chance of a misunderstanding or a feeling of betrayal because you had a really cute sign that you wanted to display in your school counseling office or you really wanted to convince students that they could tell you everything? It's a slippery slope, my friends. You've got to be mindful of it all the way up and all the way down. So I hope this was helpful to you Just to kind of again discern how you're doing business and how you want to do business in the future.

Speaker 1:

Our School for School Counselors, mastermind, is set up to provide this kind of insight and guidance. We're not legal experts by any stretch of the imagination, but we are a group of school counselors very well-versed in our craft. We have a wealth of experience in the mastermind and you know it's fun and informative to get together and tease out all the little pieces of situations when you need professional consultation. Sometimes the folks in there will bring up things you never even thought were related or had any part in the situation and it kind of expands your mind and your vantage point of the situation as you're walking through it. It's incredibly powerful to be able to gain that 10,000 foot view instead of missing the forest for the trees, and so if you need that type of support and consultation in your school year this year, your seat is saved. All you have to do is go to schoolforschoolcounselorscom slash mastermind and we will welcome you with open arms. We genuinely want to provide a safe space for any school counselor who needs support or consultation to be able to access that in a relevant, timely and professional way. So we hope you join us. It would be a great way to start your school year, and we've got lots of cool masterclasses coming up that are really going to help you not only uplevel your skills and your school counseling game, but to become a recognized voice on campus, someone who speaks with authority and starts to develop clout and is able to really catalyze some major change, and that's going to be exciting for you as well as for us when we cheer you on.

Speaker 1:

All right, keep in mind your confidentiality sign when you get to your office. You might consider taking it down. You might consider just having a frank conversation with students. Hey, listen, you know, what we talk about in here stays pretty much between us, but there may be some times when I have to tell somebody what's going on. It could be a time when you want to hurt yourself or you want to hurt somebody else. It could be a time when somebody's hurting you, or it may be something that we never even thought was going to happen. But I can promise you that if that kind of stuff comes up, I'm going to do my very best to let you know what's going on and what I have to tell before I have to do it. Is it a deal? And hopefully that will give students the clarity they need to make their decision and it will give you peace of mind knowing you've been very upfront and very genuine about your limitations, y'all.

Speaker 1:

Even ASCA says confidentiality related to each student's unique situation should be addressed on a case-by-case basis, using a student-centered approach that includes ongoing student and parent-guardian engagement, as appropriate, and school personnel with a legitimate educational interest per FERPA.

Speaker 1:

So even ASCA has made it very clear that there is not this one blanket confidentiality statement that precludes you sharing information from anyone at any time. And I think so often when we come out of grad school we have that understanding, we think that's what our job is. But we're not therapists. Unless you're working in the role of a licensed therapist in a school, then your roles are a little bit different. But as a school counselor, we cannot lean on these HIPAA-oriented therapy roles. They're just not true for student confidentiality and we don't want to cut ourself off at the knees before we even get started because we felt compelled to give this sort of guarantee to school counseling. So I urge you, think about it and think about it quite a bit. All right, I'll be back next week with another episode. Until then, I hope you have the best week. Take care, my friend.